Caprifoliaceae > Sambucus canadensis


Common names: American elder, elderberry, sweet elder
More info at Floridata
Thanks  

--Last edited by dinesh valke on 2008-07-04 10:12:53 --

S. javanica @ FOI




Sambucus sp. seen at Mahabaleshwar ... click on photo for more views


How would I know that the species naturalized in Mahabaleshwar is S. canadensis or S. javanica ?

Dinesh, the species you posted looks very similar to that of Shaista's. But that doesn't look like S. canadensis. S. candensis has flat-topped clusters of flowers

Shaista's and your flowers-clusters look round (hemispherical). In Shaista's other pictures, it is more obvious in the fruit clusters.
So, probably we have to look for other species.
For S. javanica, I could not find many references. However, it is supposed to be naturalized in Manipur, so I presume that the species on FOI is S. javanica.

Comments?

Thanks very much, Tabish, for the tip.

From Wikipedia , I feel Sambucus javanica (Chinese Elder; southeastern Asia) may be found naturally, at higher altitudes in North-eastern India as well as other parts of India; Sambucus chinensis (Chinese Red Elder; eastern Asia, in mountains) may be found in the mountainous N-E India, and perhaps (rarely) found in other parts (higher altitudes with favourable climate).

Another, Sambucus adnata (Asian Dwarf Elder; Himalaya and eastern Asia; berries red), as quoted in Wikipedia, is (one of the two) "dwarf elder", which ... "by contrast to the other species, these are herbaceous plants, producing new stems each year from a perennial root system; they grow to 1½ – 2 m tall, each stem terminating in a large flat umbel which matures into a dense cluster of glossy berries." So identifying this one in the Himalayas and neighbouring regions must be easy.

Thus, at Mahabaleshwar I can think of S. javanica after knowing its other characteristics OR it could be some other exotic species which may have naturalized here, whose records I have yet not come across.

As for Shaista's, I think just the same; it could be S. javanica.  

--Last edited by dinesh valke on 2008-04-02 10:20:37 --

Dear Tabish, Shaista,

Some reading at The Flora of British India, Volume 3 (The notes are scanned version; typos abound) states 3 species:
S. ebulus (the European Dwarf Elder)
S. javanica (with following: S. rubra, S. chinensis, S. thunbergiana) sharing same descrïption
S. adnata (the Asian Dwarf Elder)

And a little more reading at: GARDENBED.COM and a PDF from, Bureau of Plant Industry, Philippines

I was trying to find the colour of berries
... at Spring Meadow Nursery states about S. javanica: bright orange fruit, white flowers ... which means Shaista's plant may be far from javanica.
(I have not seen the berries of plants at Mahabaleshwar).

मैं तो कब से बोल रही हूँ! कोई मान ही नही रहा की मेरा वाला  कानादेंसिस है!

The Flora of British India, Volume 3 says:
S. javanica, Blume Bijd. 57; a straggling shrub, leaflets free, stipules usually small or 0, drupes black. So, that nursery link may not be reliable.    

--Last edited by tabish on 2008-04-02 14:52:15 --

  Indeed good catch, Tabish (confirms you read throoouuuugh it)  

My flickr friend, Ajinkya (flickrname: plantscape) confirms that the colour of Sambucus at Mahabaleshwar is dark purple just as in jamun ... which can I assume is close to black?

शैस्ता (स्पॆल्लिंग बराबर है ?) मॆरा वाला तॊ जरूर जावानिका है, और मुझॆ लगता है कि आपका भी वही है |
... कॅनाडॆन्सिस का इनफ्लॊरॊसिन्स (पुश्पकॊश ?) फ्लॅट है |

ताबिश, आपका क्या खयाल है ?

शाइस्ता कहते हैं मुझे
This book on "Ethnopharmacology of Medicinal Plants: Asia and the Pacific.. By Christophe Wiart" says that S. Javanica has flowers that are white, starry and small, and fruits that are red berries.
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=U8oRy3gy-p8C&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=sambucus+javanica+berries&source=web&ots=nc6ntN-KrA&sig=hQQIzBNLAtBtlK5M51ZOzvXw1cU&hl=en#PPA11,M1
Thats the link to it.
Further, another book called "Medicinal and Other Uses of North American Plants: A Historical Survey with special reference to eastern indian tribes" ..says clearly that the fruit of s. canadensis is purple black, juicy, rarely red green or yellow. The other things that it says match with the flower picture i clicked. Plz read Page 121 onwards in
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=J4eEWDKNsOwC&pg=PA123&dq=sambucus+canadensis+berries&ei=fWvzR6bEFoLIsQPwl4CiDQ&sig=ia8tke41pTa3TJxyixmGYXS_iwc#PPA121,M1
aur bhi hai: ..
Another one called "The Book of Herbal Wisdom: Using Plants As Medicines By Matthew Wood" confirms yet again that S. Canadensis has dark purple berries. see http://books.google.co.in/books?id=MstkfhSd4FMC&pg=PA423&dq=sambucus+canadensis+berries&ei=fWvzR6bEFoLIsQPwl4CiDQ&sig=3KOyRkVWHHW96gOaHQbYeW68lF4#PPA423,M1

नर्सरी वाला ग़लत हो सकता है ..इन सब के साथ तो शायद वो ठीक है.
And moreover...no reference other than the one tabish mentioned says that the fruits of s. javanica can be black.

एक ग़लत तो हो सकता है, इतने सारों के बारे में आप दोनों का क्या ख्याल है?

Handbook of Indian Flora - Vol I by Heber Drury say this about S. javanica :

Quote :

Suffruticose : branches somewhat terete: leaflets adnate with a sessile base, or potioled, cuneate or cordate stipules                                                                 rarely foliated: cyme leafy at the base, with the branches elongated: berries black.

Shaista, my strong feeling about your plant is S. javanica.

Tabish has already cited the form of S. canadensis inflorescence which is flat. Certainly the inflorescence in your photograph is hemispherical.

The plant does not look like herbaceous nor does it have red berries - so not any dwarf elder.

Regards.

What do u guys have to say about the references in this one? http://sliceoftheday.wordpress.com/2008/06/08/american-elderberry-sambucus-canadensis/

According to this Missouri Plants link, Sambucus canadensis's inflorescence is described as:

Quote :

Terminal compound cymes, typically dome shaped to flattened, to 30cm broad.

Shaista, well there is still nothing to indicate that your flowers is not S. javanica.

Tabish, Shaista,

I went round the WWW eagerly wanting to find any new information on Sambucus ... well, nothing appreciably new, however I did come across as usual, contradictions. There is no much concrete information regarding each species of Sambucus.

Here is one French site giving brief details of Sambucus species: http://sureaux.blogspirit.com/archive/2007/08/index.html

It may not be proper identification; but I have started to believe that Shaista's as well as my photos are of S. canadensis ... the dome shape and large size inflorescence match the image searches in Google and Flickr.

Does that make me feel better?!

Good to see that everybody is doing his/her homework on this confusing issue.
Well, here is my input. I found S. candensis described in Flowers of the Himalaya, which is a highly respectable source - here is the descrïption in full:

Native to N. America; very common in cultivated areas in the Himalaya, To 1500 m. Flowering: May-Sep.
A shrub to 4 m, with smooth younger branches, and with leaves usually with 7 oval slender-pointed, sharply toothed, bright green leaflets which slightly downy beneath. Leaflets 5-15 cm, the lowest leaflets often lobed. Flowers white, in domed cluster 10-20 cm across. Fruit black-purple.

So it seems that the cluster shape is not a feature which can distinguish between S. canadensis and S. javanica, neither the fruit color. However, in a specimen photographed in Manipur, I can see the lower leaflets lobed/subdivided.

So, all the specimens which we have separately seen, can as well be S. candensis.

But the million dollar question is what distinguishes S. canadensis from S. javanica?  

--Last edited by tabish on 2008-06-12 03:15:08 --

Interestingly, Sahyadri Database (http://wgbis.ces.iisc.ernet.in/biodiversity/database/?q=node/2) which lists 4166 species, does not include any Sambucus.
Does that mean it is only cultivated?

Hey! Dinesh, in your pic above, I can see some lower leaflets lobed, if I am not mistaken. Just check it out.

Here is a photo of leaves:
You may click on the photo to reach photopage; I have marked about 3 area where we can see some of the bottom-most leaves re-dividing into leaflets. I do not know whether we can consider this as a effect of "extreme" lobing process. As such, I am not able find any normal lobes.